File talk:Selected languages and accents of the british isles2 rjl.jpg

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Discussion from the Scottish English article talk page

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The following map has been applied to this page, and to w:English English:

Diagram showing the geographical locations of selected languages and dialects of the British Isles.

It appears to have one major flaw, and several quibbles:

  • Where on earth is the Scots language? Its ommission seems particularly inappropriate considering the debt owed to Scots by Scottish English. Somewhat bizarrely, only one dialect of Scots is included, and that is the tiny number of w:Ulster Scots speakers, only about 2% of all Scots-speakers! I know that the map is titled "Selected languages", but it is baffling why the only language the auther has "selected" not to include is Scots!
  • Why on earth have two distinct languages, Scottish Gaelic language and Irish language, been shown as a homogenous blob?
  • Highland English is missing: another rather stark absence on this Scottish English page.
  • Why are several subdivisions of English English shown, but only two of Scottish English? The differences between the w:Fife dialect and w:Aberdonian are just as big, if not bigger, than the differences between Brummie and Yorkshire dialect.
  • Where on earth did Shetland go? A stunning ommission, considering that it is one of the most distictive linguistic groups in the entire w:British Isles?

I find it very depressing to hear that a German textbook publisher wants to use it in textbooks for 600 schools. No wonder many people grow up with a very strange perception of the language situation in the United Kingdom.--Mais oui! 10:01, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I would say the purpose of the map is useful, ie to produce a map of the major languages and accents. However the presentation is very poor and amatuerish. And given it misses out too much information at the moment, it could probably be removed. Astrotrain 18:39, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The map is just a scan with some dotted lines on it. Shetland has a different accent and language to that of the Orkney Islands - there aren't even on the map. A pattern followed through much of the regions of Scotland. Fife, Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen and so on all sound very different as mentioned above. You can tell straight away a Dundonian due to their dialect and the native terms used in comparison to someone next door in Fife or Aberdeen. Really, there's no thing as a Scottish accent but according to this everyone speaks one Scottish accent bar the top left that is a gaelic language. It is 100% incorrect and needs removed.

From a non-Scottish perspective I can point out another major, major flaw. Whatever happened to Manx? Admittedly its hardly a thriving language, but it is definitely worth mentioning on a map of this type. And yes, Shetland and Sheltie are a grave omission. As someone brought up in the Cotswolds I can also add that that part of England has a very distinct dialect too (enough that some of the phrases and words I use confuse people here on the other side of the planet). Grutness...wha? 04:37, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well spotted with the Manx. I should also point out that the three living Norman dialects of the Channel Islands are also missing. --MacRusgail 17:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The map's title was selected languages and dialects of the British Isles. What ain't on it obviously ain't been selected.84.135.251.148 (talk · contribs)
Absolutely. However it does beg the question as to why Scots was the only one of the British Isles' indigenous languages which the author chose to omit? Bizarre.
Please sign your contributions. As you are new I have added your id for you.--Mais oui! 14:18, 12 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This map seems to be inaccurate on ALL three scores. English, Lowland Scots and Scottish Gaelic. The Mull of Galloway is excluded from having a Scottish Gaelic community, while Lowland Scots barely features (if at all), and it excludes areas such as Islay, Lismore, Sleat and Applecross which all have varying degrees of Scottish Gaelic usage! In other words, when it comes to Scotland, it's useless! --MacRusgail 17:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This has to be one of the most useless maps ever. Not only does it not show or describe the relevant language/dialect areas properly, it also has Glasgow and Edinburgh about 30 miles further south than they actually are. Strangely, they appear not to speak any form of English in Shetland. --81.154.92.17 10:16, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't quite understand why the map I contributed has been overwritten by a map which is exactly the same. I agree my map was crap, it was a work in progress... but if so why doesn't someone make a decent version! The new one is the same!! (ricjl 17:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Accuracy

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Geordies come from Tyneside. The map puts them in Middlesbrough. This is terrible; the two accents do not seem alike. Also, the labellings of the areas as "Yorkshire" and "Lancashire" may upset some people; Lincoln has become part of Yorkshire and Wakefield seems to be part of both Yorkshire and Lancashire and Scarborough is no longer in Yorkshire. There is some basis to grouping accents together in those groups; it's just that labelling them as "Yorkshire" and "Lancashire" is a bit offensive to parochial feelings.

Some of these data are a bit disputable (particularly the orange solid line for where Welsh is spoken); I think someone should create a better map, frankly. — OwenBlacker 16:55, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

  • It's missing areas because it is titled 'selected'. I've just pointed out those discussed in the article. The areas are just a rough guide, and besides, an accent may have a spiritual home, but where it is spoken can never be pinned down to an exact area - they all flow into one another. If you want to make your own be my guest. (ricjl 22:49, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC))
    • Yeah, that's fair; I'd not noticed the word "selected", which is careless of me. As I posted on your talk page, sorry for being quite so curt (and rude, tbh) last night. I'll give it some thought, but, realistically, I'm unlikely to be able to do a better job any time soon. Again, well done for doing it at all! :o) — OwenBlacker 22:18, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)
      • I appreaciate you admitting your oversight :o). I'd be lying if I said I did massive amounts of research for it, I pretty much used my general knowledge, expect for 'Irish', i didn't know that was mainly spoken in West Ireland till i looked it up. Welsh is pnly spoken in a few villages in 'deepest Wales' so that's pretty rough too - the same for Gaelic. If you know anymore post it here and I can ammend it. (ricjl 20:17, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC))
  • I agree the Welsh area is incorrect - in absolute numbers the greatest concentrations of Welsh speakers are on the North and South coasts (outside the marked area entirely), and the highest percentage area is the North West (largely outside the marked area), not actually in the countryside but in the urban areas (Caernarfon, Bethesda, Blaenau Ffestiniog, Porthmadog etc), where Welsh clearly predominates. Furthermore, there are Welsh speakers everywhere, and according to 2001 census figures, nowhere in Wales is the percentage less than about one in ten. So if anyone's redoing the map, it might be better to mark the whole of Wales as the territory of the Welsh language. — divec Sun, Jan 16 14:22:46 GMT 2005

Scots and Ulster Scots might usefully be added. Paul Danon, 200502

  • I'd also argue that one could find traces of the west country accent a bit further north into Gloucestershire and even east into Oxfordshire. Vanky 23:13, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • There really isn't anything of use on this map. There is no reference material cited or implied, and a cursory glance by any speaker of English in the British Isles would show many inaccuracies. Is the map adding anything to the article? I would recommend getting rid of it. --ManOnABus 17:10, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The poor quality/accuracy of this map has been highlighted by others on other discussion pages but i have to say i think its so far off the mark as to be beyond worthless and actually misleading. The idea that there are only 2 Scottish accents - those of presently Gaelic and English speaking areas is hilarious. How anyone can seriously lump the accent of the Northern Isles in with that of Glasgow for example is absolutely beyond me - the Orcadian/Shetland accent is just as distinctive as that of the Hebrides. Also few would confuse the Glasgow accent with that of Inverness, Aberdeen or indeed any part of the highlands. The idea behind the map is sound but it has been put into practice in a most amateurish and inaccurate fashion. siarach 14:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright?

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When crediting the UK website, it states that the map's copyright has expired, but then has a GFDL broilerplate. If the copyright is indeed expired, the map cannot be released under the GFDL since it's in the Public Domain.

Could someone clear this up? Is it PD or GFDL? --Josh3736 05:26, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I would be very surprised if it was either. Estuary English has only been described as such since the 1980s. --Henrygb 19:41, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I can clear this up. The copyright of the underlining map has expired, the adittions I made are GFDL. (ricjl 28 June 2005 18:13 (UTC))

Version 3

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Have updated with your suggestions, and am happy to continue to do so pereodically. NB: "Northern Irish" was removed because I realised the distinction made was only due to the national border and not neccesarily by accent. I didn't add "Scots" because there are many dialects listed and I wouldn't know which deserve highlighting (it's not very practical to put everything on.

It was a mistake to remove "Northern Irish". Perhaps you should change it to "Ulster" because the accents in w:Ulster are not really at all like those the southern parts of Ireland, and have a heavy Scottish influence. Jonto 21:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Manchester/Lancaster

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Whatever happened to 'Mancurian'? --195.92.67.65 16:10, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Another view about the suitability of this map

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It is undated, and from everything I know about language use in Britain and Ireland (*not* "The British Isles" thank you very much) it is pretty inaccurate. I would not advocate its use on the Wikipedia. Evertype 18:46, 30 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Unusable

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Aside from the fact that everything is generalised to the point of meaningless, and in some cases wrong, where is the East Midlands dialect? Why is there no distinction between North, Mid and South Walian accents and why don't you distinguish Irish accents, for sure there is a difference between an Irish accent from say Cork and one from say Galway or Dublin. - FrancisTyers 14:55, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I seem to remember Scouse being a Liverpudlian accent - but here its geographically almost Welsh! This map is simplistic and often wrong, and should probably just be removed. Snooo 11:19, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree about Irish accents, Northern Irish is about as far from (ROI) Irish as it is from Cockney. and i'll even (sort of) cite a source. Next time there's news about troubles in N. Ireland, listen to the irish corespondant on BBC news and compare it to the stereotypical irish accent (I'm not saying that's exactly how people speak in Eire), note the huge difference, the stereotype passes itself off as Irish, but nobody would think that's northern Irish.--KX36 20:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Scottish Gaelic

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This map is totally inaccurate in regards to Scottish Gaelic. It totally ignores the fact that there are Gaelic speaking communities, or at least remnants, in the Inner Hebrides, South Skye (esp. Sleat), and even on the Mainland! --MacRusgail 16:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Glasgow/Edinburgh

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Glasgow and Edinburgh seem to have been relocated 50 miles south. Glasgow seems to be somewhere close to New Cumnock and Edinburgh has moved to Peebles. Please move them back up. Fuzzy 13:58, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Remove this map

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This map is pathetic. As mentioned above, Liverpool (ie Scouse), Newcastle (ie Geordie), Glasgow and Edinburgh are all in completely inaccurate locations. Essex is now, apparently, somewhere up in East Anglia. Even London appears to have moved slightly to the northwest.

Furthermore, most of England does not appear to have any accent or dialect at all.

This map is worse than useless - it is downright misleading. It should be removed entirely. 81.19.57.146 14:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hidden File history

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MB298 (talk) 22:54, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Talk page:

(cur | prev) 02:59, 27 January 2008‎ Finavon (talk | contribs)‎ . . (14,093 bytes) (+15)‎ . . (Repairing link to disambiguation page - You can help!) (rollback: 1 edit | undo | thank) (cur | prev) 06:55, 19 February 2007‎ 81.19.57.146 (talk)‎ . . (14,078 bytes) (+8)‎ . . (undo) (cur | prev) 06:54, 19 February 2007‎ 81.19.57.146 (talk)‎ . . (14,070 bytes) (+528)‎ . . (undo) (cur | prev) 12:40, 6 December 2006‎ KX36 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (13,542 bytes) (+510)‎ . . (→‎Unusable) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 12:35, 6 December 2006‎ KX36 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (13,032 bytes) (-235)‎ . . (→‎Welsh) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 12:34, 6 December 2006‎ KX36 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (13,267 bytes) (-581)‎ . . (→‎Cockney) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 12:33, 6 December 2006‎ KX36 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (13,848 bytes) (+581)‎ . . (Cockney) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 12:28, 6 December 2006‎ KX36 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (13,267 bytes) (+235)‎ . . (Welsh) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 16:00, 20 November 2006‎ Ricjl (talk | contribs)‎ . . (13,032 bytes) (+5,140)‎ . . (discussion from the scot-eng talk page added) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 08:39, 16 November 2006‎ 84.64.116.87 (talk)‎ . . (7,892 bytes) (-22)‎ . . (→‎Accuracy) (undo) (cur | prev) 07:55, 22 October 2006‎ An Siarach (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (7,914 bytes) (+799)‎ . . (→‎Accuracy) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 04:19, 14 October 2006‎ Snooo (talk | contribs)‎ . . (7,115 bytes) (+227)‎ . . (→‎Unusable) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 06:58, 7 October 2006‎ Fuzzy14 (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (6,888 bytes) (+258)‎ . . (Glasgow/Edinburgh) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 14:43, 14 September 2006‎ Jonto (talk | contribs)‎ . . (6,630 bytes) (+274)‎ . . (→‎Version 3) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 09:58, 3 September 2006‎ MacRusgail (talk | contribs)‎ . . (6,356 bytes) (+315)‎ . . (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 06:55, 24 March 2006‎ FrancisTyers (talk | contribs)‎ . . (6,041 bytes) (+445)‎ . . (→‎Another view about the suitability of this map) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 10:46, 30 October 2005‎ Evertype (talk | contribs)‎ . . (5,596 bytes) (+315)‎ . . (Another view about the suitability of this map) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 09:10, 29 July 2005‎ 195.92.67.65 (talk)‎ . . (5,281 bytes) (+123)‎ . . (undo) (cur | prev) 04:15, 3 July 2005‎ 212.159.30.47 (talk)‎ . . (5,158 bytes) (+548)‎ . . (undo) (cur | prev) 11:13, 28 June 2005‎ Ricjl (talk | contribs)‎ . . (4,610 bytes) (+552)‎ . . (version 3) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 10:10, 6 April 2005‎ ManOnABus (talk | contribs)‎ . . (4,058 bytes) (+332)‎ . . (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 11:41, 11 March 2005‎ Henrygb (talk | contribs)‎ . . (3,726 bytes) (+168)‎ . . (→‎Copyright?: probably copyvio) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 15:13, 17 February 2005‎ Vanky (talk | contribs)‎ . . (3,558 bytes) (+190)‎ . . (→‎Accuracy) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 00:00, 15 February 2005‎ Jnestorius (talk | contribs)‎ . . (3,368 bytes) (+249)‎ . . (Irish) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 10:44, 9 February 2005‎ 80.189.230.238 (talk)‎ . . (3,119 bytes) (+68)‎ . . (→‎Accuracy) (undo) (cur | prev) 06:28, 16 January 2005‎ 62.245.36.95 (talk)‎ . . (3,051 bytes) (+727)‎ . . (→‎Accuracy) (undo) (cur | prev) 21:26, 15 January 2005‎ Josh3736 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (2,324 bytes) (+348)‎ . . (Copyright?) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 17:20, 4 September 2004‎ OwenBlacker (talk | contribs)‎ . . (1,976 bytes) (+481)‎ . . (Replied again) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 13:17, 4 September 2004‎ Ricjl (talk | contribs)‎ . . (1,495 bytes) (+463)‎ . . (→‎Accuracy) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 15:18, 1 September 2004‎ OwenBlacker (talk | contribs)‎ . . (1,032 bytes) (+407)‎ . . (→‎Accuracy: Reply) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 15:49, 31 August 2004‎ Ricjl (talk | contribs)‎ . . (625 bytes) (+381)‎ . . (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 09:55, 31 August 2004‎ OwenBlacker (talk | contribs)‎ . . (244 bytes) (+244)‎ . . (→‎Accuracy?!) (thank)

File page:

(cur | prev) 14:48, 26 December 2016‎ MB298 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (606 bytes) (+126)‎ . . (→‎Now commons: new section) (rollback: 1 edit | undo) (cur | prev) 22:57, 4 February 2012‎ Fbot (talk | contribs)‎ . . (480 bytes) (+39)‎ . . (BOT: Flagging file as possibly eligible for transfer to Commons) (undo) (cur | prev) 13:52, 29 June 2007‎ ZacBowling (talk | contribs)‎ . . (441 bytes) (0)‎ . . (uploaded "Image:Selected languages and accents of the british isles2 rjl.jpg": Reverted to earlier revision) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 17:07, 3 October 2006‎ Beland (talk | contribs)‎ . . (441 bytes) (+61)‎ . . ({{accuracy}}) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 14:49, 9 September 2006‎ Bkell (talk | contribs)‎ . . (380 bytes) (+13)‎ . . (restored {{badJPEG}}; the original is not a scan, the lines are too sharp and the colors are too pure) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 15:04, 2 April 2006‎ AndreasPraefcke (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (367 bytes) (-48)‎ . . (badjpeg not valid IMHO, since an old map scan is the background of this picture (hence png is not really the format of choic)) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 09:40, 5 December 2005‎ Bkell (talk | contribs)‎ . . (415 bytes) (+13)‎ . . ({{badJPEG}}) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 11:09, 28 June 2005‎ Ricjl (talk | contribs)‎ . . (402 bytes) (+105)‎ . . (new version) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 10:35, 28 June 2005‎ AndreasPraefcke (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (297 bytes) (-1)‎ . . (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 10:31, 28 June 2005‎ AndreasPraefcke (talk | contribs)‎ . . (298 bytes) (+3)‎ . . (linkfix) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 10:10, 28 June 2005‎ Ricjl (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (295 bytes) (+96)‎ . . (changed licence) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 17:13, 22 August 2004‎ Ricjl (talk | contribs)‎ . . (199 bytes) (+146)‎ . . (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 17:13, 22 August 2004‎ Ricjl (talk | contribs)‎ . . (53 bytes) (+53)‎ . . (Selected Languages And Accents Of The British Isles.) (thank)
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