File talk:Richard Marshal unhorses Baldwin Guines at a skirmish by Matthew Paris.jpg

File information

This file was marked as equivalent to w:Image:MattParisHistMajorCambCCCv2p85WillMarshal.jpg from en.wikipedia.org according to the NowCommons tag.

This is the edit history for that file's page:

• [2005-03-26T03:45:56Z] Dsmdgold ([[William Marshall]] at a joust unhorses [[Baldwin Guisnes]] in 1233. From the ''Historia Major'' of [[Matthew Paris]], Cambridge, Corpus Christi College Library, vol 2, p. 85. Scanned from ''Four Gothic Kings'', Elizabeth Hallam, ed. {{PD-art}})
• [2005-03-26T03:47:26Z] Dsmdgold (spelling)
• [2005-04-23T17:59:05Z] Dsmdgold
• [2006-05-06T22:05:19Z] Matt314 (NowCommons)

Original title:

• MattParisHistMajorCambCCCv2p85WillMarshal.jpg

Upload log:

• (del) (cur) 03:45, 26 March 2005 . . Dsmdgold (Talk | contribs) . . 1565×762 (117,701 bytes) (William Marshall at a joust unhorses Baldwin Guisnes in 1233. From the ''Historia Major'' of Matthew Paris, Cambridge, Corpus Christi College Library, vol 2, p. 85. Scanned from ''Four Gothic Kings'', Elizabeth Hallam, ed. {{PD-art}})

Text:

[[William Marshal]] at a joust unhorses [[Baldwin Guisnes]] in 1233. From the ''Historia Major'' of [[Matthew Paris]], Cambridge, Corpus Christi College Library, vol 2, p. 85. Scanned from ''Four Gothic Kings'', Elizabeth Hallam, ed.
{{PD-art}}
[[Category:Illuminated manuscript images]]

Poccil 08:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

This is not an image of William Marshal, but of his son Richard. 140.247.86.19 14:42, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Possible Rename

After closed deletion discussion, Keep file and change name to - Matthew Paris - Richard Marshal.jpg - is a suggestion. - REAL TUBE  | ^Talk 12:23, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

•  Comment Correcting the identification of person shown is certainly important. Perhaps we can also take the renaming as an opportunity for a more generally descriptive name. Maybe something like "Medieval knights by Matthew Paris - Richard Marshall". Is it accepted that this depicts a joust? If so, perhaps "Medieval knights jousting by Matthew Paris - Richard Marshall" or some variation? Other thoughts? -- Infrogmation of New Orleans (talk) 16:21, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Should description be changed before the rename because not a joust but skirmish scene before Monmouth. Richard was a leader of barons against Henry III, yet Matthew Paris does romanticize knighthood, so "Medieval knights by Matthew Paris - Richard Marshal" is descriptive. - REAL TUBE  | ^Talk 03:07, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, I was wondering if "joust" was really accurate. You seem knowledgeable about what is shown, so I suggest you go ahead and correct the description. I'll give this discussion a bit more time to see if anyone else has comments about a new name, then I (admin) can take care of the name move. Cheers -- Infrogmation of New Orleans (talk) 04:44, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

•  Comment Since there appears to be some controversy, a safer approach would be simply "Medieval knights jousting by Matthew Paris.jpg" or similar. Then in the description something like shows the knight 'traditional' William Marshal and 'revision' in 20th century (sources) Richard Marshall. -- GreenC (talk) 12:35, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes, though note that per above, "jousting" is not accurate. Maybe "Medieval mounted knights battle by Matthew Paris" or some variation? Any other information anyone thinks would be useful to put into the title without making it too long? -- Infrogmation of New Orleans (talk) 17:09, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
•  Comment Very interesting, I went to the same Parker Library online (CCC) and downloaded the whole scene which is appropriate to use on en.wikipedia with the name "Medieval knights by Matthew Paris - Richard Marshal.jpg" then this present 20th century revisionist "scan" saying William, takes a separate life of its own. I advocate the simplest name change mentioned in the first line above, "Matthew Paris - Richard Marshal.jpg". Both images would have a place and use. The new image is more fitting for medieval horse categories, showing why two horses are going in the opposite direction (led by a squire or groom). And to think the English Wikipedia nickel plated DVD crashed on the moon this year from an Israeli launch Beresheet without this correction. - REAL TUBE  | ^Talk 21:59, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Apologies, but I don't think "Matthew Paris - Richard Marshal.jpg" is a useful name. It is the name of the artist plus one of the two people shown in the image. It seems a bit confusing to people who don't already know what/who is shown in the image, much less those who don't already know about the artist. If you want the "simplest name", perhaps something like "Skirmish by Matthew Paris" or "Two Knights by Matthew Paris". (If the name of one of the people shown is important to specify in the title, why not include both names?) My personal thoughts at this moment. Cheers, -- Infrogmation of New Orleans (talk) 06:19, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Just following the original Commons naming of 2006. These participants are not knights in the strict sense, but noblemen, Lord High Marshal of England vs. Count Baldwin of Guisnes. The scene is not according to Roger of Wendover's narrative, but romanticized, and only deserves bare essentials in a name. I already used knights terminology for the whole scene because it fits already indicated Commons category which would be applied to w:Richard Marshal. - REAL TUBE  | ^Talk 01:21, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out "knights" isn't accurate; the exact sort of thing I hope for feedback on. As for the original upload name, I think it's rather mediocre for reasons I mentioned above (Commons wasn't as good with descriptive names back in 2006) - two names without context on their relationship. I'm willing to go with your suggestion if no one other than me objects; I just think we can do better. How about "Richard Marshall by Matthew Paris", which would at least clarify who is depicted and who is the artist? Infrogmation of New Orleans (talk) 15:43, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Global use of file is a factor in keeping name similar to original, and I have provided a substitute for William Marshal, but captions have to match. File:Matthew Paris - William Marshal2.jpg. - REAL TUBE  | ^Talk 16:09, 9 August 2019 (UTC)