File talk:Portrait of Timoteo Ha'alilio by an unknown artist.jpg

Identity

The uploader said: "The sign in the Bishop Museum identifies the subject as Timoteo Ha'alilio."--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:46, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

That's nice...but hardly proof of authinticity. This is Kamehameha III.--Amadscientist (talk) 00:36, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

While family resemblance is possible, Haalio and Kamehameha III are not that closely related. This is identical to other portraits of the young Kamehameha III--Amadscientist (talk) 00:55, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

I will identify this portrait to whoever it is.--Amadscientist (talk) 01:09, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

According to this vintage Hawaiian Royal postcard, the portrait is indeed Kamehameha III (Kauikeaouli).--Amadscientist (talk) 01:45, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot to cite the Smithsonian Institute. I will bring this up on the humanities reference desk and possibly contact Bishop Museum to be sure. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:20, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Bishop Museum

Bishop museum got back to me. I have copied the email below but I left out the archivist's name to preserve his privacy. The attachment include the portrait and a second page with the catalog number and the description "[Timoteo Haalilio]. Oil on canvas by an anonymous artis, date unknown. Gift of George R. Carter, Jr., 1959."

Aloha mai,

Thank you for catching this Wikipedia mistake. The museum is not in a position to do research for outside parties, but I can tell you with out a doubt that this is a painting of Timothy Haalilio not Kauikeaouli. We have the original of this portrait in our picture gallery here at the Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum. I have attached a picture of the portrait and plaque. Thank you again for your attention to detail.

Mahalo nō me ke aloha,

And a second email from another person (I left out their names again for privacy purposes) at the museum.

Aloha,

This portrait is currently on display in the Bishop Museum's Picture Gallery and is identified in the Museum's records as Timoteo Haalilio.

Bishop Museum Library and Archives

If you need further prove and would like to ask these two persons yourself. I can send the two emails with attachment to you if you wish. I use alohakavebear101@outlook.com, a pseudo email, for everything related to Wikipedia.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:15, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I actually do need references, but I am not the one you should now be contacting. This needs OTRS or just an admin that will take your word. So, what was their response about the Bishop Museum postcard and that mistake? Did they offer you any sources that might mention this? If not OTRS may use e-mail verification from the museum itself.--71.197.98.195 22:51, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I have no idea what your talking about. I have no idea what OTRS is and probably won't pursue that step. It sounds too complicated. I doubt the Bishop Museum wants to waste anymore of their time addressing anymore of my questions since they don't do research for people. I didn't ask about the postcard in my email because I questioned the reliability of the postcard as I've stated before, only asking who the person was, Kamehameha or Haalilio. You can ask Bishop Museum further if you want. But I'm not going to go further with this. I've got my answer and if it isn't sufficient to change what a postcard says (as I bet you will argue) then I will just stop here, knowing who this portrait truthfully represents. Again I will provide you the contact and two people who emailed me if you want. Or if you want to tell an adminsitrator you trust to email me and then I can forward the museum's responses to them.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:05, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Identification of portrait

The painting is currently displayed in the Bishop Mus1eum as "Portrait of Timoteo Ha'alilio by an unknown artist". I would assume that this represents the latest scholarship, and should supersede older descriptions. Wmpearl (talk) 19:28, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi User:Wmpearl. I assume that was the display title. I also ask two people from the Bishop Museum and they agree to this and even provided me the acquision date and where it came from. User:Amadscientist is not convinced though because of a postcard that says otherwise.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:24, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Just the fact that the Museum labels this as "Portrait of Timoteo Ha'alilio by an unknown artist" would probably be enough for any admin to reverse the previous move on commons. However, assuming what is the latest scholarship by a label at a museum may not be the best approach. The Bishop Museum is not the issue, the painting is. The fact that a published document (even a post card) states outright that the Bishop Museum had, at one time referred to this as Kamehameha III only demonstrates that there is confusion in regards to the painting. The fact that the artist is not known is also an indication that there are gaps in information about the painting. But as far as the Museum is concerned, yes, they firmly believe this is Timoteo Ha'alilio and I am not going to object to a title change.--69.62.165.177 19:16, 30 June 2015 (UTC)