File talk:Flag of Uzbekistan.svg

The constructions sheets according to FOTW and vexilla-mundi.com totally disagree with each other. Anyone know anything about which one is valid and which one is bogus? —Gabbe 11:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

They're not all that different, but I'd go with FOTW, as it actually appears to have published the textual flag specification from Uzbekistan law. The crescent's exact shape seems to be the vague point. I like the way vexilla mundi's crescent looks better, but what I like doesn't always equate to what the law dictates (if it does at all). Maybe go over to en:Talk:Uzbekistan and get some native opinions. ¦ Reisio 17:19, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

In my experience, FOTW is more trustworthy. They quote their sources, and there are people on their email list who will discuss any problems. Vexilla-munti, on the other hand, presents a construction sheet with absolutely no citation. User:dbenbenn 21:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

FOTW's construction sheet seems more reliable since it has an official source. But most of the other sources I found (Flag Database, photos of the flag, another photo) use the wider crescent. Then there's a photo of a flag over the government building ([1]), but it's difficult to tell which kind it is. It looks more like it's something from between the two versions. –Vzb83 21:48, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Colors of the flag of Uzbekistan

he assertion that the Uzbek flag law dictates precise colors for the flag is false. But, as the Uzbek flag law states, and as the Wikipedia version of the Uzbek flag doesn't reflect, is that the color of the top band should be light blue. The flag law, as it can be found here https://lex.uz/en/docs/57181 has official translations in Uzbek and Russian. Thankfully, color terms in these languages are slightly more precise than the standard color terms we use in English. In describing the color of the top band the Uzbek translation uses the term moviy rang and the Russian translation uses the term голубой. Both of these terms specifically describe a light blue/sky blue color with a definition close to that of English azure. Not turqoise. Uzbek and Russian both have a more specific color word for turquoise and it is not the word used in the flag law.

Now, it is true that at the very end of the flag law, a color image of the flag of Uzbekistan is included and it does use the turquoise color that can be found on the current Wikipedia flag. Importantly, no where does it state that those are the colors that should be used for the flag of Uzbekistan (in fact, the green color used for the bottom band is not the same as the green on the Wikipedia flag for some reason) and, even more importantly, in an official capacity, the flag of Uzbekistan is never flown using the turquoise color. I cannot find a single instance of the government of Uzbekistan flying the Uzbek flag with a turquoise top band. You can find the flag of Uzbekistan flown by the Uzbek government in a number of images online. I will link a few here to prove my point:

https://asr.gov.uz/en/news/7908 (light blue top band)

https://www.azernews.az/nation/195732.html (light blue top band)

https://astanatimes.com/2021/06/uzbek-prime-minister-visits-kazakhstan/ (light blue top band)

https://enterprise.press/stories/2023/02/22/closer-ties-with-uzbekistan-97589/ (light blue top band)

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-the-senate-of-the-oliy-majlis-upper-chamber-of-the-parliament-of-uzbekistan-76733389.html (granted, it's more difficult to see in this picture, but I wanted a picture of the flag on top of the Uzbek parliament to make a point... it is not turquoise and is only a few shades darker than the sky.)

I think I've made my point. The Uzbek flag is not turquoise despite the poor choice of image used in the flag law. The Uzbek flag is light blue. So, in addition to changing the color of the top band so that it is light blue, I'm also going to darken the shade of the bottom band because, in the images I shared above, the bottom band is noticeably darker than the current Wikipedia version of the Uzbek flag. For the same reasons, I'm going to slightly brighten the red stripes. Despite what many websites will tell you. The flag of Uzbekistan does not have any official colors. For that reason, Wikipedia should be following the real usage of the flag by the body that has authority over that flag---the Uzbek government. Oscopo (talk) 19:41, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

So the colors that were decided was based from a French Naval book "Album 2000" . I have the updated version of this book and it still has this information. However, the process for getting these colors is generally from either getting a sample flag or by asking diplomatic offices what their specifications are. In the case of Uzbekistan, I have no clue what happened. Over time, the pantone shades mentioned have been changed either with finding new evidence or by a change of the government itself. I also had a state specification for Uzbekistan and their flag; I have no clue about colors and nothing was mentioned. I also looked at other sources, no specific colors were mentioned either. I do agree we need to alter the image. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 21:28, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

The colors of the current file look very wrong to me, and they don't quite match the example images provided either. I think the blue is way too rich and the red too bright, and they make the flag look like that of Sierra Leone upside down rather than Uzbekistan. I suggest we change them to the ones used on the file shown here:

https://gov.uz/oz/pages/symbols

Colors
Previous	#0099B5	#CE1126	#1EB53A
Current	#3081F7	#EE162E	#308738
Suggested	#0286CE	#C70201	#027A02

– anlztrk (talk | contribs) 18:14, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I would urge against using digital renditions of the flag as a reference. I know it sounds counterintuitive but the use of digital renditions is what brought us to the turquoise flag to begin with. Not only is the flag at https://gov.uz/oz/pages/symbols inconsistent with the colors (that I think we've established are incorrect) in the Uzbek flag law, the dimensions of the flag are inconsistent with the official construction sheet (also available in the flag law). In other words, I don't see https://gov.uz/img/flag.jpg as being a more accurate depiction of the Uzbek flag and I don't see any digital rendition as an accurate depiction of the flag.

The colors I picked are from the first linked image in my original post as that is the flag as its being flown in the Uzbek Parliament https://asr.gov.uz/en/news/7908 . The Uzbek flag does not have a standardized color scheme. I agree that while the colors I picked are not perfect, I don't think that there are any correct colors. But, I do think the flag I uploaded is more correct than the turquoise one and more correct than a flag whose colors are picked from a digital rendition. If there is a way to somehow optimize the color selection from the flag at https://asr.gov.uz/en/news/7908 (or some sort of combination of the colors of the flag as it appears over many images of the flag as it is flown) I would support that. But I wouldn't support picking the colors from a computer created version of the flag.

I know it probably sounds stupid that I'm against a computer created flag but for an image of the flag, but I think that the colors in an image of the flag would still be more accurate than those in a computer created flag. I would be open to using a flag whose colors are more clear than in https://asr.gov.uz/en/news/7908 such as the flag that can be found in https://enterprise.press/stories/2023/02/22/closer-ties-with-uzbekistan-97589/ . But, it's ultimately the case that there are probably a range of acceptable colors and I believe that the flag I uploaded is within that range. Oscopo (talk) 10:06, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I would also be in favor of removing RGB/Hexadecimal/CMYK data that is shown on File:Flag_of_Uzbekistan as it is incorrect and can never be correct and I think that has been established. I'm going to try to do that now but I don't know if I have the correct permissions. Oscopo (talk) 10:08, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

It makes no sense to be against basing the colors of the flag on a digital rendition, because not only Wikipedia is also a digital platform - any other evidence for the colors we might have, such as photographs, are also digital. Any such photographic source, by its very nature, will be unreliable because the output would depend both on the device with which it was taken, environmental factors such as the lighting, and the display device.

What we can do is to compare the colors on the photograph to the ones of another flag whose digital color specifications we do know, such as the flags of Azerbaijan (shown here: https://www.azernews.az/media/2022/06/21/limfb3.jpg) and Kazakhstan (shown here: https://astanatimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/02B2FE9D-711F-46C7-858E-5A0A24959CAC.jpeg). Here are the specifications of both those flags, as well as the current file and the proposed revision:

Colors
Flag of Azerbaijan		#00B5E2	#EF3340	#509E2F
Flag of Kazakhstan		#00ABC2
Flag of Uzbekistan	Current file	#3081F7	#EE162E	#308738
	Suggested update	#0286CE	#C70201	#027A02

In the first picture we can see that the blue is quite close but slightly darker than that of Azerbaijan, and the second picture clearly shows it's supposed to be bluer than Kazakhstan's. In any case, the current purpleish blue is way off.

We can't really tell much about the red because the stripes on the Uzbekistan flag are too thin to tell, and the green is more or less the same on all three versions anyway. Together, the colors on the file on the government website look the closest to me. As the only official file we have, I think we should use those colors. – anlztrk (talk | contribs) 10:59, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I should point out that the one on https://gov.uz/oz/pages/symbols is not the only official version we have. The other one comes directly from the flag law of Uzbekistan here: https://lex.uz/en/docs/100122 which I would argue is a better source for an official version of the flag. The reason we aren't using that one is because it does not line up with actual usage of the flag---this is where we get the turquoise color from. The blue from the flag law is #008BAF.

My point is that if we use a digital recreation of the flag it assumes that those are the correct colors because someone specifically chose those colors to create that flag. You yourself admit that the one in the flag law (the most official flag we could possibly have) is flawed. So why would a flag found on a different government website be any better?

If we choose a color that's arbitrarily close to the way the flag is actually flown then we are doing a better job at representing that flag.

But, you make a good point. The flags of Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan do have a legally determined color value. So, I made a couple of diagrams to show how the flag color I chose, based on the way it's actually flown, is closer. Using images from here https://astanatimes.com/2017/03/new-uzbek-presidents-state-visit-to-kazakhstan-sees-relations-soar/ and here https://president.az/en/articles/view/60903 respectively.

https://imgur.com/a/9WFbNoG

Legend:

1 (from official flag law)

2 (from https://gov.uz/oz/pages/symbols)

3 (from the color I chose)

4 (official Azerbaijan)

5 (official Kazakhstan)

Of course, the blue that I chose isn't perfect but my point is that no blue will ever be perfect so we should pick one that is arbitrarily close to the way it is in actual usage by the government of Uzbekistan. My honest ideal solution to this would be to have a black and white flag with "Azure" "Red" "Green" "White" written in the appropriate locations. That is the absolute most accurate flag we could have. Oscopo (talk) 12:18, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

The problem with that is, that doesn't take into account how much the Kazakhstan / Azerbaijan flag's color values change between the digital and photograph versions. We can't just use the color from the photo as is:

	Digital representation	Color on photograph
Azerbaijan	#00B5E2	#36AFFD
Kazakhstan	#00ABC2	#2083BA
Uzbekistan	#3081F7	#2A72FA
	#0286CE
	Interpolated result

The 'interpolated result' was calculated by ChatGPT after I supplied the official color values of Kazakhstan flag and the colors on the photo of both flags. If we use this method, we get   for the green and   for the red. – anlztrk (talk | contribs) 13:41, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

https://www.uzbekembassy.in/presidents-of-uzbekistan-and-kazakhstan-exchanged-congratulatory-messages/

https://astanatimes.com/2023/07/border-demarcation-agreement-between-kazakhstan-and-uzbekistan-comes-into-force/

https://primeminister.kz/en/news/heads-of-kazakhstan-and-uzbekistan-hold-negotiations-in-tashkent-23999

https://astanatimes.com/2022/12/kazakhstan-uzbekistan-sign-40-agreements-worth-2-5-billion-at-tashkent-business-forum/

https://astanatimes.com/2021/12/president-of-uzbekistan-shavkat-mirziyoyev-visits-kazakhstan-to-sign-declaration-of-allied-relations/

https://astanatimes.com/2021/04/kazakh-uzbek-pms-launch-construction-of-central-asia-international-centre-for-trade-and-economic-cooperation/

I think you're making a couple of assumptions now. Firstly, that the printed version of the flag of Kazakhstan is originally using 3125U which is not something I'm convinced we can be sure of. Secondly, that the color you picked from the image represents the color of the flag in the image. Just the flag of Kazakhstan ranges from #166D98 to #258ED0 in that one image and that's just me eyeballing which ones I think are the lightest and the darkest.

If we really want to do it this way shouldn't we be averaging the color of every flag in every image where the flag of Uzbekistan co occurs with some flag with a predefined color and then interpolating the real color of the flag of Uzbekistan? If we're going to this level of granularity then we can't just base our evidence off of one image. After that, then we'd still have to do the same thing with the green and the red. If we do do it this way then we're still making the assumption that every printing of other national flags is always done in accordance with the official code. (once again I'm not convinced we can be sure of that)

Then there are still going to be wildcards like this one: https://sputnikmediabank.com/media/8275411.html

According to Wikipedia The Russian Flag, the Russian government has a specific blue it uses to print its flag.

If we take for granted that the Russian flag in this image is using the government ordained blue then the Uzbek flag becomes much darker than it would in other images still taking into account color shift from the camera.

Once again, the flag of Uzbekistan doesn't have any official color regulations and I wouldn't be surprised if the color of the flag was different at different times because of this. I don't see any other reasonable way of doing this then just arbitrarily picking a close color.

I see now that you've edited your reply including that ChatGPT's interpolation for the red is a color approaching orange. I think that more or less proves that your method is probably just as inaccurate (if not less) as choosing a close color. Oscopo (talk) 13:47, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the reason for all this effort was to demonstrate that the color from a photograph can't be used in a digital representation as is. I stand my point about using the colors from the file from gov.uz. – anlztrk (talk | contribs) 14:16, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

If you think we should use that file, why shouldn't we use the one from the Uzbek flag law https://lex.uz/en/docs/57181 and revert to the colors from a few days ago?

Surely that one is more authoritative? Oscopo (talk) 14:19, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

That would work too, though I don't get why one would be considered more authoritative than the other. In any case I don't think the current version is optimal. – anlztrk (talk | contribs) 14:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, the one I linked is provided in law meaning it was legislated. The one you linked was not.

You're not being consistent though. You originally pointed out that you didn't believe that the one at https://lex.uz/en/docs/57181 was accurate when you wanted to change the file to begin with and now you're saying it works? Oscopo (talk) 14:25, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I said the previous version was insufficient because it was. I say it would work because the replacement is even less satisfactory. – anlztrk (talk | contribs) 06:07, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

So what would you consider to be the most satisfactory solution?

I hope it's abundantly clear now why we cannot use https://gov.uz/oz/pages/symbols Oscopo (talk) 14:46, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

We could use the colors in the file attached to the official legislation for the time being. – anlztrk (talk | contribs) 06:59, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Not to mention that https://gov.uz/oz/pages/symbols is completely flawed in construction. Why would we assume that a flag that is totally flawed in its construction is correct in its color?

https://imgur.com/a/gPMp6VB

On the left is the current flag which adheres to the construction sheet. On the right is the flag from https://gov.uz/oz/pages/symbols which is all over the place in terms of construction. Oscopo (talk) 14:46, 4 October 2024 (UTC)