File talk:Execution of Hebrews by Pagans.jpg

Where can I find information about this picture and his sense? I think that may be different explanations. Thanks.--Tenan (talk) 10:27, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Who are the Pagans ?

I copy here a discussion tha took place on the Wikipedia:Reference Desk

This file has been used on 10 pages (fortunately not on en.wikipedia.org) : https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Execution_of_Hebrews_by_Pagans.jpg

Does someone know who are these Pagans and how does it come that the picture is used to illustrate articles about the Crusades ? I'm afraid it has nothing to do with this historical event.

Christians persecuted Jews during the Crusades ; at what time did "Pagans" persecute Jews ?

Thank you for your answer.--2A01:CB00:980:7A00:C049:B449:EA17:28A4 (talk) 21:56, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

- based on a quick internet search, it appears that the picture has been mis-named. It should say "crusaders" rather than "pagans", refering to the Rhineland massacres of Jews by crusaders in 1096. But I did not find a source for the image itself, where it's from or what date. - Epinoia (talk) 22:11, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

In the Spanish Wikipedia, it indicates massacre by the Crusaders.[1] More info on Crusaders killing Jews is in Rhineland massacres. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:14, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Someone asked the original uploader, but he didn't have much info.[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:19, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

The image page claims that it's from a bible moralisée from the year 1250, which suggests that it might be specifically "Codex Vindobonensis 2554". It looks like you can view it in person if you go to Vienna, but I haven't been able to find a digitized version online.

I'm sort of skeptical that an image from the Crusades would be found in a Bible. You'd think that they would show actual Bible stories. But it's a question very far outside my expertise.

If it is a Bible story, can we figure out which one? Seems to be after the crucifixion, if I'm correct that the figure in the upper left is Jesus. The two sword-wielders seem to be wearing crowns, and the figure in the lower left (who seems to be awaiting execution, or perhaps begging for the lives of the victims?) is apparently a saint. Something from Acts? I'm drawing a blank. --Trovatore (talk) 22:27, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Searching tineye for the earliest results, it seems the earliest non-wikipedia link might be this book written by this professor. I can't see a picture credit in the front matter but you might ask her for her source. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:10, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

If it is indeed from the Crusades I would be interested to understand what is actually going on. I can't work out how it makes sense, assuming that it's meant to be approving of the Crusades. There seems to be a parallelism among the four kneeling figures, and one of them clearly has a halo, and the front two appear to be about to lose their heads. Unless the swordsmen are actually about to behead the guy in the gray cap? But that seems like overkill, and he doesn't appear concerned at all, just thoughtful. --Trovatore (talk) 19:14, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

It could theoretically be an illustration of "Execution of Hebrews by Pagans" if it's an illuminated initial from a manuscript of the Book of Maccabees. I don't know how probable that really is... AnonMoos (talk) 23:05, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Codex Vindobonensis 2554 is indeed online but I don't see this image in there. It definitely looks like a Bible moralisée though. I'm sure this has come up before, maybe not on the RD but in some crusade-related article, where it was argued that these are Jews (wearing Jewish hats). Maybe Medieval Twitter can help... Adam Bishop (talk) 01:47, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Aha, Medieval Twitter knows all - it is BNF MS Latin 11560, f. 6r. An illustration from the Psalms. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:06, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Great sleuthing! So which Psalm? Is it Nebuchadnezzar attacking Jerusalem? 70.67.193.176 (talk) 05:18, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

There appears to be the start of Psalm 16 to the left of the image (Oratio David. Exaudi, Domine, justitiam meam; intende deprecationem meam.) and the start of Psalm 17 at the top of the second column. But in between doesn't seem to me to match Psalm 16. The images may refer to the commentary. Part of one section near the image seems to say "...justicium suam et ut liberetur ab infidiis iudeox. et rogat ut deus pater retribuat iudeis nequitua eox ut perdam locu et gentem pro quibi..." The words I missed at the beginning and end could change the meaning. Rmhermen (talk) 08:40, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Very nice! I also came up with Psalm 16 but then couldn't make it fit. Very hard to read the fraktur text with odd linebreaks.

So is it still consistent with having a picture of the Crusades? I don't understand the Bible moralisée idea well enough to be sure. But on any theory it's a hard picture to figure out what's happening. (I suppose the thing I'm calling a halo could be a "Jewish hat" seen from below, but to me it really still looks like a halo, especially counterposed with the cruciform halo above Jesus's head.) --Trovatore (talk) 08:51, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

The title of that section is a quote from Psalm 16 (or 17 depending your Bible tradition). The rest of the text is not from a Psalm, it says: "Precatur, Christe, non pro sua utilitate sed pro nostro negocio, quia oratio Christi stabilimentum est fidelium. Orat ergo ut reddatur ei secundum iusticiam suam et ut liberetur ab infidiis iudeorum, et rogat ut deus pater retribuat iudeis nequitiam eorum ut perdant locum et gentem pro quibus retinendis occiderunt Christum." Basically, pray that the Jews will be punished for killing Christ, for their wickedness, etc. So it's a re-imagining of Psalm 16/17, where David asks to be saved from his enemies, among other things.

The people being attacked are wearing Judenhuts (maybe), so presumably they're Jews, being attacked by a king, presumably Louis IX of France since this Bible was produced during his reign. He was certainly not a friend to the Jews of France. The Disputation of Paris took place in 1240, around the same time this Bible was made. Eventually, his grandson Philip IV expelled all the Jews from France in 1306, but there were other expulsions that took place during Louis' reign (they were expelled from Brittany in 1236, for example). This Bible was produced before Louis went on crusade, but whenever there was a crusade movement in the 12th and 13th centuries, it was always accompanied by attacks on Jewish communities. There were the famous Rhineland massacres on the First Crusade, but similar events happened on every other crusade, including the Barons' Crusade, also in 1236. During Louis' crusade, he was taken prisoner in 1250. When news reached France, there was a "Shepherds' Crusade", which, of course, blamed local French Jews for Louis being captured by Muslims in Egypt.

So, it's probably not a depiction of the Rhineland massacres, as is being claimed on other Wikipedias (and, as I mentioned, I'm sure this image has been discussed before on English Wikipedia, so it was probably being used here at some point as well). But it looks like it's a reimagining of King David as King Louis, praying for protection from his enemies, who were reimagined as the Jews, even though David was Jewish! Attacks on Jewish communities would be fresh in everyone's mind and everyone would have agreed that the Jews were the enemy of the very saintly and Christian King Louis.

The Institut de recherche et d'histoire des textes has a lengthy bibliography of works mentioning this manuscript. Some of them look like they might discuss this image in particular. Another useful source not listed there is ""Kingship and Crusade in the First Four Moralized Bibles" by Cecilia Gaposchkin (a chapter in The Capetian Century, 1214-1314, ed. J. R. Phillips and W.C. Jordan, p. 71-112). I haven't had a chance to read that yet but I'm sure she talks about this. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:43, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Similar to the text in the psalm commentaries of Petrus Lombardus (here Psalmus XVI,14 Exsurge, Domine). --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 23:02, 9 February 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 2A01:CB00:980:7A00:B517:38FD:72AC:17C5 (talk) 00:28, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

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I agree with Adam Bishop's conjecture that the most likely subject matter shown in this image is King David killing his enemies. Apparently, the manuscript is organised so that on each page four Old Testament scenes are juxtaposed with four New Testament ones. Interpretation of the image will only be possible in relation to the other seven images on the page, and will have to rely on a secondary reference.

The depiction of the "enemies of God" (or of David) as wearing the Judenhut may indeed justifiably be used as an illustration of the "medieval anti-semitism" of the 13th century, but this should be based on a reference discussing the image. The image certainly cannot be simly used as an illustration of the Rhineland massacres.

I should point out that the image's new title, while certainly better than just "FirstCrusade", is still misleading. It does not seem to be the case that we have pagans killing "Hebrews", what seems to be shown is the actual Hebrews (i.e. king David) killing their enemies. --Dbachmann (talk) 07:35, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

A relevant source for this is probably: Sara Lipton, Images of Intolerance: The Representation of Jews and Judaism in the Bible moralisée (1999). --Dbachmann (talk) 07:41, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't have the book, but I can see it is full of similar images from the same bible and maybe this one. So most likely it can provide an educated explanation. Zero0000 (talk) 07:07, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Now I have the book. It discusses a large number of these "roundels", but unfortunately not this one. Nor do I find an image that is so close to this one that a confident interpretation can be given. Here is what she says about identifying Jews in the images: "In the images accompanying texts that refer explicitly to Jews, the roundels generally show bearded men wearing various forms of a conical or pointed hat (pileum cornutum). ... In the Bible moralisée, the "Jews hat" takes various shapes: it may be very tall and sharply pointed; it may be of the so-called oil-can type (broad-rimmed with a knob at the top); or it may be soft, low and only slightly peaked. This last type is identical to the headgear of many Christian figures...". From this we can definitely say that the figure in the right background with a pointed cap is a Jew, but the two kneeling figures in the right foreground probably not but it's possible. In the book there are no examples of two figures wearing crowns, but some with one such figure representing contemporary royalty. With little confidence, I'll guess that is supposed to represent the present king acting in consort with a biblical king. Zero0000 (talk) 05:38, 6 September 2021 (UTC)