File talk:Counts of Celje coat of arms (2-3).png

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Otorepec in his article only gives this record: "Not until time of Frederick II we can for first time meet combination of both coat-of-arms in one escutcheon: the fields 1 and 4 in blue contain three golden stars 2:1, the fields 2 and 3 contain two red logs on a silver background. As such it is also depicted in chronicle about the Council of Constance (1414 - 1418) by Ulrich from Richenthal." But he did not give any sources regarding field sequence. It is more natural that Counts of Celje used combination of old one from the Lords of Sanneck (which is red logs in silver, and naturally comes in 1st field) and coat-of-arms of Celje itself. You can find different depictions (although I give here only depictions with the Celje coat-of arms in 1st and 4th field):

This image is made according to depiction of escutcheon of Ulrich II. I will provide futher sources. --xJaM (talk) 11:38, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I have checked, these sources all include the coat of arms with the fields horizontally flipped (what is on the left side should be on the right side), which is why the 'disputed coat of arms' tag was added. --Eleassar (t/p) 11:58, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Janko Orožen in his Zgodovina Celja in okolice (1971) on page 183 shows six different depictions of coat-of-arms of the Counts of Celje. Among them two are depicted with coat-of-arm of Celje in 1st (and 4th) field (1/4), and one is depicted with coat-of-arm of Celje in 2nd (and 3rd) field (2/3). Some other depictions:
--xJaM (talk) 20:42, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any example that would show the coat of arms as it is currently presented by the file, with stars in the upper right corner (2nd field). There is an example of a 2/3 coat of arms depicted in Orožen[1], but he unfortunately gives absolutely no information about such a variant. For example, he doesn't state that this was the "scutcheon of Ulric II" and does not tell how it should look like regarding colours and shapes etc. If this version is retained, I'd recommend moving it to a more descriptive name, such as "Counts of Celje coat of arms 2-3.png" or something. I'm not convinced though, because this is the only source mentioning it and it does not tell where it occurs (in contrast to Otorepec). For the 1/4 version, it is also on display at Ljubljana Castle, described in the same manner as in Otorepec also by Tancik and attributed to Ulric II (Celjski); see [2] (Tancik, Ferdinand. "Grbi v kapeli sv. Jurija na Ljubljanskem gradu." Kronika (Ljubljana). Volume 18. Issue 3 (1970). Pg. 166). He also offers a source (AS, 261 r, n. d., 15. - Alojzij Schaffenrath. Wappenkopien für Ausmahlen der Strafhauska­pelle am Castel. National Museum of Slovenia.) if this was an issue. Although your commenting on the lack of a source in Otorepec and then offering Orožen with no information whatsoever means to have unfounded double standards. --Eleassar (t/p) 09:08, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I do not understand what do you mean with designation 'unfounded double standards'. I gave Orožen source not to push the idea of this version from there (you should also remove Orožen as a source of this depiction, because it is missleading), but only to support this version. I will give you (if you want) the correct source. And for sure Orožen surely had sources, but he just didn't put there. Who offers a source, Tancik or Otorepec? I've just noticed lack of source in Otorepec, not to invent some kind of so called double standards. So, for now dispute is no longer needed, as we agree that at least two similar versions existed, and I guess this debate is over. --xJaM (talk) 10:01, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think only one version existed, and don't know where did Orožen get his 2/3 one. If you have another reference for it, then by all means provide it. Orožen is not listed as a source, he's only mentioned as a reference for this image, because of the lack of any other literature containing it. If you add the word "also", then where else? --Eleassar (t/p) 10:03, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I see it. Let it be then. I thought you mean Orožen as only source for this depiction. I think that at time of finishing this image, I didn't have Orožen. I just corrected that this particular is of Ulrich II. - which might be also in whole for the Counts. I will provide additional sources. And strange question, perhaps this coat-of arms was in fact totally symmetrical. And as Otorepec well wrote, we have to be careful (with (that time) sources), since there exist some later signet rings, which are not originals any more. User RitterVonCilli also disputed shape of hexagram stars, but perhaps this is another story. --xJaM (talk) 10:17, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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