File talk:Belzig Pferde Muehlenweg.JPG

Unusual splashed white? Pitke (talk) 13:44, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Or unusual frame overo per neck? Pitke (talk) 11:40, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

It's probably a sabino. One could make an argument for a really weird Tobiano due to the vertical pattern of the spotting and the dark face with "normal" markings, but the white going up the legs, especially the front of the hind legs and the jaggy edges to the spots says "SABINO." Keep in mind too, horses can carry genetics for more than one pattern. Definitely not frame or splash, IMHO, as there is not a horizontal pattern to the jagged spots and both frame and splash usually also has way more white on the head. Montanabw (talk) 05:16, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

The blaze would be really unlaced for sabino, and there seems to be only a really tiny spot of white on the lower lip (might have a chin spot though)... This site tells "sabino" and "sabin overo" apart though, and mentions that "Crisp-edged spots are sometimes seen though, which makes some sabino and frame overos hard to tell apart." This site has a great many pictures of multiple patterns, and a load on its "sabino" page as well. It has also the qualities of which a horse must have at least 2 to qualify for some sabino registry, and this horse we have here has at least "Odd White Patches on the Body", "Socks or Stockings That Come to a Point" and "Odd Shaped White on Face". Chances are this one is not a SB1-type sabino though... Pitke (talk) 14:50, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, the more I think it over, the more I am convinced it's Sabino. Splash, by the way, is fairly uncommon, and also associated with deafness in some fashion, just as frame becomes lethal white syndrome when homozygous. (Incidentally, "overo" is a catchall term in English for "anything that isn't Tobiano" -- it encompasses at least three patterns that are genetically distinct from one another) If it will help, take a look at the Sabino horse article on English wiki. (And the other spotting articles for that matter, plus the dominant white one) I did most of the original cleanup on this and the coat color articles there when I came on board a few years ago, and since then, we have a terrific person with considerable expertise on coat color genetics who has gone through since then and cleaned it up further, adding a lot of material from current research. Actually, we are getting pretty proud of our coat color articles there, though there is still a lot of work to do...a few still are not the greatest, but on the white and spotting patterns, our resident expert has really done a lot of excellent work!

In short, "sabino" is a term that probably describes a number of different genetic mechanisms, and I agree, no way does this look like an SB-1, but in part because the horse also looks to have some Arab ancestry, and Arabs don't appear to carry SB-1, though they have other sabino patterns. By the way, in the USA, the so-called sabino "registries" are basically just places for people who are pissed-off color breeders to hang out and gripe about how the mainstream registries don't like their critters. That said, the best descriptions are probably those of the APHA and the sabino Arabian folks. That mustang site isn't too horrid, but it's not really up to par on the latest in color genetics research. For that, UC Davis is probably the best as far as having a decent web site. The gene (or genes) themselves are not yet well understood, as high white alone is suggestive of sabino genetics, and there are other minimal forms -- I've heard some go so far as to say that a chin spot will do it. Anyway, all for now. I don't get over to commons much other than when I have something to upload, so if you want to chat further, come say hi on english wiki. Montanabw (talk) 03:22, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the tips; but as the one to recently translate the whole English article Sabino in Finnish, I kinda know it by heart :> I'll be in touch. Pitke (talk) 09:19, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

And my hat is off to you for that, as I most assuredly do not write or speak any second language particularly well. (I can half-read German but I can't write it worth a damn). But if you know the Sabino article, then you will also note that only the APHA uses the terminology "sabino overo," everyone else just says "sabino." Technically, a lot of people still say "frame overo" and "splash overo" instead of just "frame" and "splash," (which I admit is inconsistent and weird) but that's because these colors are seen in fewer breeds, mostly just those descended from colonial spanish lines, and particularly Paints and Mustangs. I'm really not trying to be snippy, and I recognize that you are going through a process I went through a couple of years ago (i.e. figuring out he nuances of all the "weird" colors, particularly in light of modern genetic understandings...), but this color genetics stuff is complicated, a lot of the photos here are taken by laypeople (how many grays are called "white" by the photographers? Sheesh!) so we only have visual cues of what is most likely going on. When in doubt, I guess we need to just overcategorize! LOL! =:-O Montanabw (talk) 21:21, 9 November 2009 (UTC)