File talk:Avon Standard Sixteen Saloon 1936 (8196423074).jpg

Hello, @Eddaido: , are you sure that this (partially) pillarless (New) Avon saloon body for the Standard Sixteen is called "Waymaker"?

AFAIK the "Waymaker" name was reserved to the later saloons on the Lea-Francis 12HP/13HP, while this Standard body is called "Wayfarer". At least so say "A-Z of Cars of the 1930s" (by Michael Sedgwick / Mark Gillies), "A-Z of British Coachbuilders" (by Nick Walker) and "The Beaulieu Encyclopedia of the Automobile - Coachbuilding" (edited by Nick Georgano). Best, --Purzelbier (talk) 20:20, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Interesting, have a look here and take up the links I've talked to the owner's manager of the display of the red and white coupé we have a photo of to ask if there is a coach builder's plate on it. The car is off-site having work done on it so they can't give me an answer. Eddaido (talk) 23:42, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I meant to say – in the 1930s some English coachbuilders named their bodies the way chassis manufacturers named their models so it is not unusual for e.g. a Waymaker body to be fitted to more than one brand of chassis. Eddaido (talk) 00:01, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Of course you're right about "same coachuilt body names applied to different car brands"- Avon's "Swan" for coupés on Austin as well as on Standard chassis is a good example. And your link to the beautiful Standard 16 Waymaker is best proof that the "Waymaker" name actually was applied to Standards (although this is an earlier 2-door saloon body very different from the one on this very file...). Maybe the sources I cited just mislead me or even got the facts plain wrong; both coachbuilding books (well, their respective contect is virtually identical as Nick Walker worked on the Beaulieu Encyclopedia, too) only speak of "Standard Wayfarer pillarless saloons" (without giving a period of production - and without attributing this name to the caption of the images of the Flying 16/20 4-door pillarless saloons (same body as on this file) that are shown in both books!) and (post-1937) "Lea-Francis Waymaker saloons". The Sedgwick/Gillies book explicitly lists the "Wayfarer Saloon" as a Standard Avon Special body of the 1935 to 1937 period. So this remains a conundrum to me... But what really makes me wonder is that [1] explicitly names the body a "Waymaker" while [2] doesn't the same with the car from this very file... Best, --Purzelbier (talk) 20:38, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

It might help to consider the meaning of the words (from the OED), the first is a name for an ordinary car, the other for something special.

Wayfarer: A traveller by road, specially one who goes by foot. (i.e. boring)

Waymaker: 1. A person who makes or mends roads; spec. an English royal official of the 16th and early 17th centuries charged with keeping the highways in good repair. Also with capital initial. Now historical. (royalty, nice!)

2. A person or thing that prepares the way for another; a forerunner, a precursor; a prelude. (i.e. pushy, thrusting) Eddaido (talk) 22:36, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

That's indeed an interesting thought. But then, I still think that "Wayfarer" doesn't disqualify for a model/body name as it aptly describes what a car's foremost purpose is... just like e.g. "Traveller". Whatever the truth, the "Wayfarer" moniker definitely has been used in automotive history, "boring" or not: Category:Dodge Wayfarer.--Purzelbier (talk) 08:21, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

What is a moniker? You seem to have missed the point about the names. Perhaps you could tell me why you can't see a difference between them. Eddaido (talk) 08:39, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry if my usage of the term "moniker" was incorrect (due to not being an English native speaker); I thought that "moniker" can be used as a synonym for "name" (like in "name of a car model").... And I think you misunderstood my reply - of couse I realized the difference in meaning between "Wayfarer" and "Waymaker". But as I came to the conclusion that you wanted to imply that "Wayfarer" is not as suitable for a "car model name" as it means something rather boring, I wanted to state my opposite opinion that "Wayfarer" indeed is a very good name for a car model (meaning something like "Traveller", "Wanderer" or "Roamer") and actually has been used as such by Dodge...--Purzelbier (talk) 09:19, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have been clearer, there may be a part of the world where moniker (sounds German, is it?) is used but it must be small. Wayfarer suits a boring vehicle like a van. Not the kind of vehicle pushed out by Avon. Eddaido (talk) 09:24, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

I notice I used Wayfarer for the above image in the Avon article. The man who looks after that car is going to check within the next few days for a manufacturer's plate by Avon, maybe the answer will be there. Eddaido (talk) 10:49, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

No, I don't believe it's German - there's no such word in my mother tongue (apart from the obviously unrelated femal given name "Monika"). OED says it's of unknown origin and that it's slang for "name; nickname" ... so my usage in this context was surely not appropriate. Somehow this word has made it into my "school English" vocabulary and I erroneously thought of it as a regular synonym for "name"...

I'm curious about your inquiries on the drophead, but I don't have much hope that the manufacturer's plate will state the "body name". Somehow I wonder if those "Avon body names" ever were used in an "official" way, for example in advertisements, sales literature or catalogues et al. Maybe only an outright (New) Avon expert with access to contemporary company documents would know the thruth about those names...--Purzelbier (talk) 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)