File talk:Armoiries Luxembourg Bourbon avec ornements.svg
Where is the written source? --Xavigivax (talk) 11:29, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
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Nos grandes armoiries sont fixées comme suit: Ecartelé, aux I et IV de Luxembourg qui est burelé d’argent et d’azur, au lion de gueules, la queue fourchue et passée en sautoir, armé, lampassé et couronné d’or, aux II et III de Nassau qui est d’azur semé de billettes d’or, au lion couronné du même, armé et lampassé de gueules, sur le tout en coeur de Bourbon de Parme qui est d’azur à trois (deux, une) fleurs de lys d’or à la bordure de gueules chargée de huit coquilles d’argent posées en orle. L’écu est timbré d’une couronne royale et entouré du ruban et de la croix de l’Ordre de la Couronne de Chêne. Les supports sont à dextre un lion couronné d’or, la tête contournée, la queue fourchue et passée en sautoir, armé et lampassé de gueules, à senestre un lion couronné d’or, la tête contournée, armé et lampassé de gueules, chaque lion tenant un drapeau luxembourgeois frangé d’or. Le tout est posé sur un manteau de pourpre, doublé d’hermine, bordé, frangé et lié d’or et sommé d’une couronne royale, les drapeaux dépassant le manteau. |
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Silver not White
[edit]Sorry, but silver for the stripes would be right - not white. (http://www.luxembourg.public.lu/catalogue/monarchie/livre-famille-gdl/livre-fam-gdl-2001-DE.pdf - p. 105 + german text p. 104) P.S The english version: http://www.gouvernement.lu/publications/download/grandducalfamily.pdf *SGR* (talk) 06:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's not a democratic thing ("most of the wikipedia users want white") it's a metter, what is official. So let´s have a look at the "Origin of picture", given at this page: "Héraldique européenne" (shows white) is a private homepage - "des armoiries de S.A.R. le Grand-Duc de Luxembourg" (shows silver) is an official statement of the government.lu. --*SGR* (talk) 05:57, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- In der Heraldik wird die in der Blasonierung als "Silber" bezeichnete Farbe grundsätzlich weiß gezeichnet. Bitte stelle also deine nicht den Regeln entsprechende Änderungen ein. --Maxxl2 - talk 06:56, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Just as Maxxl2 says: silver is the word used for white. Heraldry has it's own language: gold is yellow, silver is white, gules is red, azure is blue, etc. The original file is the correct one. If you don't agree *SGR*, just have a look at the arms of Luxembourg, the Belgian province Luxembourg and many, many associated arms in Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherland. So, I don't believe I'm writing this, in this case I have to agree with Fry1989. Dqfn13 (talk) 12:49, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, you are right, you can use white like silver an yellow like gold, but as far as I can see the Grand Ducal House does not do that. They use silver and gold! I can't find any coa with white and yellow an the homepages that are most relevant in that case: http://www.monarchie.lu/fr/index.html, http://www.gouvernement.lu/ or http://www.luxembourg.public.lu/fr/index.html. User:Dqfn13 you mentioned "arms of Luxembourg" (belgian and netherland are not relevant here) which one do you mean? *SGR* (talk) 13:10, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Belgium and the Netherlanads are important as those three countries have been one and also use the same heraldik rules and have the same traditions. I refered to arms that look alike the coat of arms of the country of Luxembourg, that's based on the arms of the Grand Dukes arms. Dqfn13 (talk) 14:09, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Same traditions and look alike ... that's the point. You/They can use white (as silver and yellow as gold) - it's not wrong, but the Grand Duke of Luxembourg (or let's better say his webmasters) use a coa with silver and gold. Maybe we should contact them, that they are not up to date. ;-) I was looking for an official publication with white and yellow or a statement from the Grand Duke (or his office) for nearly one year before I made the changes. If you can find something, I will except. But I can't except, that (as far as I know) every official website comes with an different (silver and gold) coa (just have a look around the web). *SGR* (talk) 14:35, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- If it should be silver as you said, it should be called grey. Dqfn13 (talk) 14:49, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't get that - "argent" can be shown as silver or white (depending on "or" is gold or yellow). But why should we (or anyone else) call it grey, if "argent" is silver. *SGR* (talk) 15:40, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Argant IS white, if you want to use silver as gray (like now used in this file) it should be called grey, not argent or silver. This is because grey is a natural colour and silver/argent/white is a metal. Dqfn13 (talk) 16:16, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, I got it ... I wanted to make it a little bit easier, but to be exact Argent/Silver/Silber/Plata/... in COAs is only a metall and no color, so we have to name it in a different way, if it isn't white. ... allright let's speak of a grey (allthough it isn't right either, because normaly silver should be colored white or made out of metal). But back on topic - have a look at the official statement Armories at http://www.monarchie.lu or Page 105 of the pdf-File. As you can see Grand Duke Jean used white and yellow - Grand Duke Henri uses a kind of grey and a kind of ochre (for the gold). Maybe someone can change the svg-file to a lighter grey (like
), but it's not white. *SGR* (talk) 17:25, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Know that argent is silver is white, and that is a metal indeed. If they want grey they wil say so. Just like any other colour or metal will be stated as such. At monarchy.lu the coulours seem to be blue and white, not grey. Dqfn13 (talk) 18:55, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Before I answer, I will try it with an other display (maybe my Laptop is confusing me) ... Not this clear but too - there is a difference. But let's see what other people (with different screens) say. ... I was sure, that you will come to the point, that they have to say grey and not silver, if they want it "greyish" - that was another reason, why I doesn't want to call ist grey first. Well look at the other COA I gave as an excaple. I'm absolutly sure, how this one has to look an in no way the stars are white - If you want I can send a copy of my A-Level (at least an official document of my home country) - the stars are silver (greyish) not white. So it is possible, that silver is displayed "greyish" not white. *SGR* (talk) 19:58, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Tell me first, why are all other coats of arms from Luxembourg showing with white barries? Maybe the artists did it wrong? There are tons of people drawing coats of arms even though they don't know sh*t about heraldry, even here on Commons. Dqfn13 (talk) 20:22, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- I think I have given the answer before: "You/They can use white (as silver and yellow as gold) - it's not wrong, but the Grand Duke of Luxembourg (or let's better say his webmasters) use a coa with silver and gold." I think the question should not be: What about the others ... the question should be: What about this special case? And again, I can't find any evidence, that it should be white (and blue). Isn't there anyone, who has an offical document with the coa of the Grand Duke of luxembourg - that would realy help us! *SGR* (talk) 21:11, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Tell me first, why are all other coats of arms from Luxembourg showing with white barries? Maybe the artists did it wrong? There are tons of people drawing coats of arms even though they don't know sh*t about heraldry, even here on Commons. Dqfn13 (talk) 20:22, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Before I answer, I will try it with an other display (maybe my Laptop is confusing me) ... Not this clear but too - there is a difference. But let's see what other people (with different screens) say. ... I was sure, that you will come to the point, that they have to say grey and not silver, if they want it "greyish" - that was another reason, why I doesn't want to call ist grey first. Well look at the other COA I gave as an excaple. I'm absolutly sure, how this one has to look an in no way the stars are white - If you want I can send a copy of my A-Level (at least an official document of my home country) - the stars are silver (greyish) not white. So it is possible, that silver is displayed "greyish" not white. *SGR* (talk) 19:58, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Know that argent is silver is white, and that is a metal indeed. If they want grey they wil say so. Just like any other colour or metal will be stated as such. At monarchy.lu the coulours seem to be blue and white, not grey. Dqfn13 (talk) 18:55, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, I got it ... I wanted to make it a little bit easier, but to be exact Argent/Silver/Silber/Plata/... in COAs is only a metall and no color, so we have to name it in a different way, if it isn't white. ... allright let's speak of a grey (allthough it isn't right either, because normaly silver should be colored white or made out of metal). But back on topic - have a look at the official statement Armories at http://www.monarchie.lu or Page 105 of the pdf-File. As you can see Grand Duke Jean used white and yellow - Grand Duke Henri uses a kind of grey and a kind of ochre (for the gold). Maybe someone can change the svg-file to a lighter grey (like
- Argant IS white, if you want to use silver as gray (like now used in this file) it should be called grey, not argent or silver. This is because grey is a natural colour and silver/argent/white is a metal. Dqfn13 (talk) 16:16, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't get that - "argent" can be shown as silver or white (depending on "or" is gold or yellow). But why should we (or anyone else) call it grey, if "argent" is silver. *SGR* (talk) 15:40, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- If it should be silver as you said, it should be called grey. Dqfn13 (talk) 14:49, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Same traditions and look alike ... that's the point. You/They can use white (as silver and yellow as gold) - it's not wrong, but the Grand Duke of Luxembourg (or let's better say his webmasters) use a coa with silver and gold. Maybe we should contact them, that they are not up to date. ;-) I was looking for an official publication with white and yellow or a statement from the Grand Duke (or his office) for nearly one year before I made the changes. If you can find something, I will except. But I can't except, that (as far as I know) every official website comes with an different (silver and gold) coa (just have a look around the web). *SGR* (talk) 14:35, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- Belgium and the Netherlanads are important as those three countries have been one and also use the same heraldik rules and have the same traditions. I refered to arms that look alike the coat of arms of the country of Luxembourg, that's based on the arms of the Grand Dukes arms. Dqfn13 (talk) 14:09, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- In der Heraldik wird die in der Blasonierung als "Silber" bezeichnete Farbe grundsätzlich weiß gezeichnet. Bitte stelle also deine nicht den Regeln entsprechende Änderungen ein. --Maxxl2 - talk 06:56, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
Let's start at an other point: Who has to know best about Heraldry in Luxembourg? Shouldn't it be the "Commission héraldique de l'Etat"? ... Keep that in mind and come back to "des armoiries de S.A.R. le Grand-Duc de Luxembourg" (pdf-File) (one of the two origins the svg-file mentioned earlier) - look at the last page and you will see "Autor René Klein, [...] président de la Commission héraldique de l'Etat".*SGR* (talk) 10:32, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
- In itself SGR is right. In this way I suggest prior to make 2 versions. This document shows also a light version with silver nearly white but the gold is also in this way much brighter, in this way the actual version with dark gold looks also strangely. -- Perhelion 10:59, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe that could work, if we can't find a consensus ... By the way, there is another version:
, that (in my eyes) fits much better the silver/white-gold/yellow-thing. So everyone who says silver is white could use this one, because gold has to be yellow.*SGR* (talk) 05:23, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe that could work, if we can't find a consensus ... By the way, there is another version:
I know that many (small) coats of arms are colored with white for silver, but is some cases (greater arms) it is not always possible to do. Some heraldic descriptions of coats of arms mention white and silver, so silver must be real silver or light grey to show at least that difference between metal and color, white for silver works only for small coat of arms, flags and traffic signs. In this case should be (according the decription) silver bars on the shield, on the other hand, the white bar in the flag should be white, the flag decription is white, not silver, a color, not a metal. Becausse the bars in this case are white, there is no difference to see in the color white from the flag and the metal silver on the shield. It should be wise to color the silver in light grey, so show the differences between white and silver wil are to be seen more clearly. Regards, --Arch (talk) 06:56, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
- I naturally oppose any change, silver and white have the same representation in heraldry. I would not oppose uploading separate versions however. Fry1989 eh? 17:33, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Hmm, seems, that there is not much interest in this coa. So, maybe one question @User:Fry1989 (or anyone who can and want to answer): Were has been the Community, that was asking for the change in 2011? Where have all this people gone, that noone is here? *SGR* (talk) 05:09, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
And again - noone seems to be interested... The (main) problem is, that silver and white have the same representation in traditional heraldry (same with gold and yellow!) and we have to origins for the file (the more official goes with a greyish silver and a brownish gold - the privat webpage follows the traditional rules with white and yellow). But this file (in the version from 22. Mai 2014) neither fits one of the two origins (and there is another file the fits the white/yellow tradional facts much better!). So it shouldn't it be changed anyway?! But do we need a second white/yellow-version? *SGR* (talk) 11:15, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yes - please have two files and name them in a way that the reusers can identify the household like version (gold and silver) and the FIAV version (white and yellow). I am pretty sure this will end the dispute and allow reusers to make their choice. -- Maxxl² - talk 11:37, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
- What we have here today is the worst case: a unique hybrid showing gold/white instead of yellow/white or gold/gray representing or/argent. There should be a clear decision to use either the Nassau-Luxemburg household colors gold/gray or the heraldic colors according FIAV yellow/white for all elements of the COA. -- Maxxl² - talk 06:54, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
