File talk:87EarlyBagratid884-962.gif

POV map

This map copied from Armenica.org or whatever is the name of that website is a misinterpreted version of the original map by Prof. Hewsen. It claims a number of Georgian principalities (up to the Black Sea coastline!) as part of Greater Armenia, which is either a serious error or an intentional nationalistic distortion of historical reality. --Kober (talk) 12:40, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

You know, both of you, hold your horrible accusations and insults to yourself. What you are doing here is exactly your intentional nationalistic(+Armenofobic) distortion of historical reality, when you changing file and trying to portray on the map ancient Armenian principality of Tayk as ”non-Armenian” or “Georgian” at that time. While Tayk was part of Greater Armenia until 973, and then were still vassal of the Armenian shahanshah(king of kings) until 998, and only in 1001 Tayk became vassal of Bizantine empire. That website didn’t misinterpreted R.Hewsen’s map, all those small Georgian principalities of Klarjeti, Meskheti, Javaheti and Trialeti were parts of the kingdom of Greater Armenia until 962-973. Then after, those lands were given by Armenian kings to their relatives and vassals, the kings of Iberia.Карадагци (talk) 10:31, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Very true. Even shallow understanding of the Bagratid history is enough to acknowledge this map is a POV and dishonesty. No ignorance can lead to claiming the "Kingdom of the Georgians" governed by the Georgian branch of Bagradits as Armenia. The map's inaccuracy is so vivid hardly anyone can be tricked so tacking it down is not to be hurried but the promoters of it should be given attention for their wrongdoings. Anyone unfamiliar to the matter should check Toumanoff's map here on the page provided by Kober [1] clarifying where Bagradit Armenia was located and Where Bagratid Iberia did --Ercwlff (talk) 13:53, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

The TRUTH is, that even shallow understanding and knowledge of the Bagratid history is enough to acknowledge this map is absolutely correct and your words are dishonest.

When kingdom of Armenia became officially independent from Caliphate, and even before that at least since 862, all of the former kingdom of Iberia(Eastern Georgia), as well as all other Christian lands on the Caucasus was belong to Armenian shahanshah(king of kings) Ashot Bagratuni. Kingdom of Iberia was restored by the Artanuj branch of Armenian naxarars Bagratuni and they were crowned by their relative and Suzerain the king of Greater Armenia. Armenian shahanshahs were crowned as kings of Armenians and Georgians

Titular overlordship claimed by the Armenian Bagratids by virtue of entertaining the title of shahanshah does not mean that half of Georgia was part of Greater Armenia in the 10th century. I have seen many people like you throwing accusations of Armenophobia around whenever their magalomaniac nationalism is exposed. Neither Suny nor EncIslam contains any such statement. As for Ter-Ghevondyan and Grigoryan, they can hardly be impartial. I can cite tons of Georgian sources stating exactly the opposite. However, there are much more nuanced studies in the medieval Bagratid history such as those by Cyril Toumanoff, who was famously Armenia-friendly, especially when it comes to the questions of medieval genealogy. Nevertheless, I have never seen any such claims in his texts or maps. The Wikimedia Commons rules allow you keep whatever bs is created and uploaded here once copyright is respected, but everyone here should be informed that inclusion of falsified maps, especially, those that diverge from their sources (cf. Hewsen) is not honest. --Kober (talk) 04:52, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Enough please of your tricks and falsified b.s. demagoguery. Your personal Armenophobia and your anti-Armenian magalomaniac nationalism is poring out of your every hole.

Armenian kings did not need to claim and entertain any “virtual” title of overlordship over Iberia and others, they own their title of king of kings by every right and it was recognized and confirmed by Abbaside caliphs and Roman emperors , and yes south-Eastern Iberia was part of Greater Armenia in X-th century and the rest of Eastern Georgia(Kartli and Kakhetia) was depend from Armenian kingdom. Suny talking about how Armenian king Ashot made his cousin and vassal naxarar Adarnese king of Iberia and crowned him. Encyclopaedia of Islam talks about how Armenian shahanshahs was crowned as kings of Armenians and Georgians. Yes, naxarars Bagratuni of Artanuj were ethnically Armenians of Greek-Orthodox confession(Armenians-Halkedonites), and that is whay king of kings Ashot made them kings of Greek-Orthodox Iveria, which was totally under his control. And only ignorants doesn’t understand, or pretend on purpose, that Armenian naxarar of Artanuj became georgian, because he became king of Georgians and found georgian Royal line of Bagratuni. And it’s you, who trying to sneaky misguide and delude readers about this matter. That is totally your level! Your georgian sources have absolute 0 credibility when they even slightly talk about Armenian history. And if you want to talk about “magalomaniac nationalism exposition” and “bs maps created on Wiki”, I’ll tell you something. I’m also have seen many people like, who’s magalomaniac nationalism-shovinism is expressed when they creating false “historical” maps, where Armenian lands of Tayk and Lore been portrayed as Georgian lands, or when they shamelessly denied that Georgian Bagratides are descendants of Armenian Bagratides and they personal ancient domain Sper in Armenian province of Bardzr Hayk(High Armenia) is georgian lands. There is million of other examples of an Armenophobic magalomaniac nationalistic falsifications and dishonesty by people like you. Карадагци (talk) 11:44, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Guy, watch you tongue and have your body temperature checked at the nearest medical facility asap before posting here again. I see any attempt at engaging in any meaningful discussion with you is a waste of time. Go play with your maps elsewhere. Ciao! --Kober (talk) 15:59, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Yo boy, change your tone, bite your tongue and shut your pie hole. I didn’t start this nasty conversation. All of this mess is on you and your nationalists megalomaniac buddies.

You have nothing to say against the historical truth,that is why it’s waste of time for you. There is no meaningful discussion possible with such dishonesty and falsifications as you and your nationalistic friends present and spread here. People like you flooded Wikipedia with your ridiculous megalomaniac maps, like the maps of never existed mithical “Georgian Empire”, where sneaky individuals like you portray Georgian kingdom twice bigger then it was, adding as “georgian” territories bunch of lands and states, which wasn’t even tributary to kings of Georgia. You go and play with those ridiculous creations of yours. Don’t worry about my health,(I understand what kind of horrible thighs you wish to me and my health), especially this time. But it’s a time for people like you and your friends to worry about them self’s and they health;)).Карадагци (talk) 23:31, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

You declare that "Kingdom of Iberia was restored by the Artanuj branch of Armenian naxarars Bagratuni" and give reference to Suny's pages 31-32 "making of Georgian nation" which straightly indicate to Adarnase's nationality as Georgian ("his Georgian cousin, Adarnase"), the very man who restored the Kingdom of Iberia, and refers to his dynasty as "Georgian Bagratids". This is some next level of brazenness and delusionality --Ercwlff (talk) 08:56, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

And by the way, Kirill Toumanoff was an Armenian aristocrat and historian, who specializes on geneology of an Armenian ancient aristocracy.Карадагци (talk) 11:55, 27 March 2020 (UTC)