Category talk:John Maclean, 1st Baronet

Dissenting opinion on the ancestors of John Maclean, 1st Baronet

• It seems however, that all his efforts, trying to trace his roots back to the Macleans, and even changing his name, and his shield, this ancestry can not be confirmed, and modern Swedish historians doesn't have confidence in the stories about being born in castles in Scotland etc. I have no detailed insight myself, but just want to put the attention to that a lot of pedigrees in old times were made up after verbal legends, and when they are double checked from sources today, it seems a lot can not be confirmed. Dan Koehl (talk) 20:22, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

• Im just now going through some genealogy documents, and I hope to get back you very soon about this. Meanwhile, Id be interested in your ancestry from Härnösand, its possible we may be related. ;) Dan Koehl (talk) 20:49, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

• [Concerning] the family Makeleers connection to the Scottish clan Maclean, there seem to be not one evidence for that. Before granted nobility in Sweden 20 May 1649, he used a pretty simple stamp with his initials only, and only after 1649, he used a noble shield, with the 5 flowers, as did his son Jacob the younger. It seems, only after 1650, he is referred to as Sir in English sources, and after 1652 as baronet, and after this his son David becomes Swedish baron 1708. David starts to use the shield with red chevron before he became baron. Only after 1784, when the entire family is granted baronet status in Sweden, (due to the letter from 1650) did Davids descendants, two brothers start to use the name Maclean, after Rutger Macleans correpondence with Maclean family in Scotland, while the rest of the family, now also baronets, used the name Macklier. Not one source, not one evidence, makes the affiliation with family Maclean evident, however. Older genealogy in sweden, also on the house of the lords, integrated a line from Macleans, but this has been removed since, when not one single document can proove that. It can also be added, that IF this would have been the case, surely Hans Makeleer would have used the name Maclean, and the Maclean shield, already from his start in Sweden. Dan Koehl (talk) 00:56, 12 February 2020 (UTC) EDIT, maybe you can use Google translate, to read the document BIDRAG TILL SLÄKTEN MAKELIER (MACKLIER)— MACLEANS HISTORIA from page 31 (you can download an online version), written by en:Bengt Hildebrand, a famous Swedish genealogist, who totally drops the idea about a connection between the two families, due to total absence of any poof what so ever.Dan Koehl (talk) 01:04, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

• Regarding entry wikidata:Q5971007; 1. it seems heraldry are referred to there, which this person never used, and his son Jacob also did not. 2. Regarding the name John Maclean I highly doubt that this has any prime source (IF it has, then sensational!). If the only source for this is Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, then Im afraid they may have used the pedigrees from Gustaf Elgenstierna, Den introducerade svenska adelns ättartavlor. 1925-36, which is today documented full with errors, and scan not be relied upon, without any second source backing up the statements. Probably some 70% may be OK, in not controversial issues, while, as in this case, a prime source should be referred to, that he used that name, and the heraldry described. I only looked into this a couple of hours, but the indication is that it was all made up by Rutger Maclean (who, together with his brother Gustav, took the name Maclean around 1873 or 1874, when the baronet branch of the family was introduced on Swedish Riddarhuset, while the rest of his family did not. And Gustaf Elgenstierna seem to have accepted the records, without looking deep into if the statements could be sourced or not. But Ill continue checkup on this. Theres is hardly doubt that he was Scottish, (although we dont know for sure), and the family intermarried with other Scottish families in Sweden, but thats not a confirmation, that he was a descendant of the Maclean family, and not really a proof that he was from Scotland either, as far as I can understand from what I have read. Dan Koehl (talk) 04:43, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Dear @Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): , did you receive the file? Dan Koehl (talk) 21:08, 19 February 2020 (UTC)