Category talk:Don Bosco

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Reasons for discussion request --AlbeiroR24 09:03, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Following the discussion in the Village pump. The name "Don Bosco" is more international and it is also hold as the English name.

Also, if you look at bs:Ivan Bosco, bg:Боско, Иоанн, ca:Sant Joan Bosco, cs:Jan Bosco, da:Giovanni Bosco, de:Johannes Bosco, en:John Bosco, es:Juan Bosco, fr:Jean Bosco, ko:요한 보스코, hr:Sveti Ivan Bosco, id:Yohannes Bosco, it:San Giovanni Bosco, la:Iohannes Bosco, lt:Šv. Jonas Boskas, hu:Bosco Szent János, nl:Giovanni Bosco, ja:ヨハネ・ボスコ, no:Johannes Bosco, pam:Giovanni Melchiorre Bosco, pms:Giovanni Bosco, pl:Jan Bosko, pt:João Bosco (santo), ro:Ioan Bosco, ru:Боско, Иоанн, sq:Giovanni Melchior Bosco, sk:Giovanni Melchior Bosco, sl:Sveti Janez Bosco, fi:Giovanni Bosco, sv:Giovanni Bosco, th:นักบุญยอห์น บอสโก, uk:Боско, Иоанн, vi:Gioan Bosco, zh:若望•鮑思高 - no one uses Don Bosco but they all use variants of Giovanni, or John. Evrik 14:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment In fact, there are more support than opposition and more reasons to move than those (two) who said that the move goes against the policies. However, the reason to move support the policy. "Don Bosco" is not only the English recognized name (easy to prove), but also the international one. 202.47.103.62

Summary

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As there has been some discussion at the Village Pump, I will try to summarize the arguments. Keep in mind that this is not a vote, and that the merit not the number of arguments counts. I will not make comments as to the merits of the arguments, in this listing. These aren't my arguments, but taken from the discussion. I will give my own opinion afterwards.

  • Moving to Don Bosco
  • Keeping John Bosco
  • Few national wikis use the name Don Bosco, they use the corresponding national variant for their article title.
  • The policy says "use the English name", and John Bosco is the English name.
  • Moving to Giovanni Bosco
  • Giovanni Bosco is the native name.
  • Neutral
  • All variants are (more or less) commonly used in English, and category names are in English. Therefore, it does not really matter which one is chosen.

Now that the neutral part is over, let me state my own opinion: the arguments for using Don Bosco are based on convenience for international users, consensus and commonsense. I think those are pretty strong arguments. The arguments against using Don Bosco are based on interpreting policy and article names that were presumably based on national policies. IMHO, these are rather weak arguments. The policy argument is made even weaker by the fact that "Don Bosco" is seen, by a majority of voters, as an English name. So, if no new and compelling arguments come forth, I will move the category to Don Bosco and create a category redirect from John Bosco to Don Bosco. --rimshottalk 09:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Comment no pages use Don as part of the article name. they all use a variant of John. So I really don't see how the use of Don is more convenient for international users. There is no majorty vote here. there is also no consensus for a move. Evrik 14:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For the consensus: look here. For the use: google search might reveal de best known name:
  • Google "John Bosco" wikipedia: 9230 hits
  • Google "Don Bosco" wikipedia: 44000 hits
  • Search on English Wikipedia: "John Bosco": 190 hits, "Don Bosco" 390 hits --Foroa 15:16, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment Thank you for the good summary. I think that we, in general, should be cautious with a blind "English" rule and try to move to compromises with a better multi-language and multi-cultural dimension. Don Bosco is a nice example, but there are others too. For example, we could use for the many images, articles and categories containing saint a more universal abbreviation such as st (E.g. St-Martin). As far as I know, is St-Martin acceptable in many European languages and acceptable as unisex symbol (for male and female saints). --Foroa 10:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment the English rule as you call it is to make the commons a place where all people can work together. There is no reason to change the name of the category. Evrik
I already took into account your arguments, as you can see in the listing. There is no need to repeat them. If you want to change my opinion, please provide new and compelling arguments. I may not have been clear enough, so I will, again, state what weakens the main arguments for "John Bosco":
  • Article names: what these tell us is that Don Bosco is called by variants of John in many countries, nothing more. If you read the articles, you will find statements saying that Don Bosco is also used. I don't speak many languages, but in those I do speak, you find the following:
  • German: Meist wird er nur „Don Bosco“ genannt., which means Usually, he is just called Don Bosco
  • English: ...known in English as Don Bosco
  • French: Jean Bosco ou Don Bosco ..., which means Jean Bosco or John Bosco...
  • Others are already found in the original discussion.
Also, some languages use variants of Don, so that argument is really incredibly weak.
  • Policy: the policy says that the English name should be used. It should be clear even to you, however, that Don Bosco is just as English a name as John Bosco is.
  • No consensus: there will never be a full consensus for any variant. An overwhelming majority supports Don Bosco, however.
Finally, Category:John Bosco will stay as a category redirect so all those intent on using that name to find images will be able to do so. --rimshottalk 11:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looking at the comments at the top of the page, there is no consensus to move the category. There is no consensus to make an exception to the language policy. Opinion is split. The category should stay as it is. Evrik 19:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Did you look at the original discussion? Did you even try to imagine that it might be possible that Don Bosco is compatible with the language policy, not an exception? --rimshottalk 21:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I see your position as the only position. There are very strong evidences to support the move. Your only objection has been answer many times. I think there is not enough opposition and technically I think there is already a consensus and good reasons for the move. AlbeiroR24
  • You can spin your argument all you want. The results are in fact, rather muddled. There is No consensus to make the move. That is fairly clear. Evrik 14:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"There is No consensus to make the move": Conclusion belonging only to User:Evrik. Consensus only before his position, little support to his point of view during discussion. Unknowing other positions. That is not fairly clear. Studying other procedures to continue discussion under the support of the records of this discussion. AlbeiroR24

Sorry to let you down Evrik, but it is pretty clear that "Don Bosco" is also an accepted English name. Even though the language policy says to use the English name in categories, please don't take it so literally that the category must be named in the way only [near-]native English speakers would understand the name. In addition, if I could be so literal myself, the language policy is actually pretty loose on which English name to use in categories. The aforementioned discussions and this one lean toward favouring an internationally recognised English name. Therefore, the contents of Category:John Bosco will be moved to Category:Don Bosco, with the former category remaining a redirect. Any additional questions may be asked on my talk page. 哦,是吗?(висчвын) 00:58, 15 May 2008 (GMT)

Requested move

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Please an administrator to rename this category as "Don Bosco" that is the real international name. "John Bosco" is the English translation and it is not understood for Non-English speakers (the real name was Italian "Giovanni Bosco"), but Don Bosco is well known in the five continents. Thanks. --El Viajero Paisa 14:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I opened a votation to move officially this category to Don Bosco. There are enough evidences to do so: Commons says that Categories must be in English: Don Bosco is considered the English name (cfr. en.wikipedia: "Saint John Bosco, born Giovanni Melchiorre Bosco, and known in English as Don Bosco..."; the Official Site of the Salesians of Don Bosco; the biography of Don Bosco according to the SDB; the bigger number of results as Don Bosco in Google and Yahoo and many others like that en.wikipedia, as many other wikipedias like es.wikipedia, REDIRECT the name of Don Bosco.)

ESPAÑOL: Abrí una votación para renominar oficialmente esta categoría a Don Bosco. Existen evidencias suficientes para hacer esto: Commons dice que Categorías deben ir en inglés: Don Bosco es considerado el nombre inglés por la (cfr. en.wikipedia: "Saint John Bosco, born Giovanni Melchiorre Bosco, and known in English as Don Bosco..." (tr.es "San Juan Bosco, nacido Giovanni Mechiore Bosco y conocido en inglés como Don Bosco); el Portal Oficial de los Salesianos de Don Bosco; la biografía de Don Bosco en inglés de acuerdo a los SDB; el alto número de resultados como Don Bosco en Google y Yahoo y otras muchas evidencias como que en.wikipedia REDIRIGE el nombre de Don Bosco.)

--AlbeiroR24 06:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • What's a votation? Things here aren't done by a vote, but by consensus. Evrik